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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.01 22:23:00 -
[1]
Hehe, yes, I have to kill my one, too.  Too bad, it was pretty effective.
Now, what do I put into my med slots? Perhaps 1-2 of this rare ammo repaires i orginially had in queue for recyceling. mhhh...
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.02 11:43:00 -
[2]
"Under half the resistance"? 70% vs 40% - thats 57% of the old ones.
The cap need of the normal hardeners is pretty low. 2 - 2.5 cap/s - any large gun (exept projectiles, of cource) use more cap/s.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.02 12:25:00 -
[3]
"these devices are power hogs"
Are you kidding? Tthe multispec - sure, but the normal ones?? They have the same cap/s as a SMALL laser. YOu can run 2 for infinite time on a cruiser, non-projectile weapon fire needs a lot lot more cap.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.02 15:26:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Ana Khouri on 02/09/2003 15:30:44
Edited by: Ana Khouri on 02/09/2003 15:29:54
Cannot really see the problem with the scorp - 3 sensor dampeners and you can kill a enemy BS without it even firing one shot at you.
equip 6 and you'll disable two targets and still have room for a MWD and a SB.
And even with the 70% shieldhardeners a gallente or amarr BS with a single array of SH could outdamage a scorp with a double SH array. If you enganage a damage maxed BS with your scorp at tranq you'll loose.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.02 15:39:00 -
[5]
True. Because of that I have fitted 4 dampeners on my scorp 
Only against a single target, though.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.02 16:27:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Ana Khouri on 02/09/2003 16:27:38
True, I made an error here. I looked at the resitances, not at the damage going through.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.02 18:35:00 -
[7]
A word of advice to all non-chaos testers:
Those "shield boost amplifiers" need "shield manegement" lvl4 - so train it if you want to use them.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.02 21:55:00 -
[8]
 Quote:
Edited by: Valeria on 02/09/2003 19:18:59
Ok I was wrong, they do stack, atleast today. And the bonus is 20%.
So an Armaggedon using a XLarge C5-L can boost 2063 shield every 4 seconds, using 400 capacitor.
That still doesn't feel right.
Well, but for that it would need to sacrifice all it's low slots for the boost amplifiers, right? That is a pretty big sacrifice.
And even lasers and hybrids can do 2000 shield damage with less than 400 cap easily - a tachyon hit me two times on chaos today for 1111 damage.
(If you count it's average damage it would quite probably need more than 400 cap to make 2000 shield damage, but not much more. A mega beam or 425 rails can definatly deal 200 shield damage for less than 400 cap.)
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.02 22:12:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Ana Khouri on 02/09/2003 22:14:38
Quote:
Thats not the point, the point is that if u beef up your cap u could be nearly invinsible... 2000 cap every 4 seconds? hell 8 Tachs could now do that dmg.
Well, it could use 2 10% cap rechargers in it's remaining med slots - since it'S low slots are all taken - but that won't help much.
We are talking about a 100 cap/s drain here. No BS can sustain that with that setup. Since (damage mod boosted) weapons can deal 200 shield damage for a lot less cap... Well, most. The tach probably cant, but all other lasers and hybrids, nevermind the projectiles, should be able too.
And the arma will deal not much damage witout mods.
And dalman, keep calm. The patch isn't due for at least 1-2 weeks I think. The balancing is perhaps finished for 50% - max.
That a shield tank arma/apoc has to be tested before we can decide if it's really uber. As said, such a "tank" would only have a pop gun, it wouldn't deal much damage.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.02 23:20:00 -
[10]
Quote:
Combine with Projectile weapons, 7 of them, and you have quite an effective ship. Not counting recharge, the Armaggedon will be able to re-boost over 25,000 shield. And with Projectile weapons it will be able to fire while doing so.
We'll have to test that one. A aram has 4200 shields with lvl4 shield management - which it will need for the amplies - so we could assume a total theoretical shield of 29.2k.
A normal arma can boost 6000 shield using a booster without amplies, so it has basically a 10200 shield, That gives the ampli arma 2.8 more shield than a normal apoc. If we outfit a normal apoc with damage mods it deals 5.46 more damage/time than the ampli apoc.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.03 00:25:00 -
[11]
Gallente and minmatar ships are both hybris between cladari and amarr ships, as mentioned previously somewhere in this forum. Gallente have a drone bonus, while minmatar have the speed bonus. Granted, the speed bonus isn't really as much, but the drone bonus isn't either.
And both boni can make the difference between victory or loss in certain situations. A BB jamming a gallente BS, but is getting destroyed by it's drones or a minmatar ship, which is able to keep it's distance to another ship with a lower range (but turrets with a higher damage) due to it's speed bonus.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.03 08:54:00 -
[12]
Nope, that with the multispectral was a oversight, both versions are 25% on chaos. Rare and common normal SH are 40%.
TomB, a request - could you change to fitting requirements of the shield boost amplifiers from shield management lvl4 to lvl3 or remove that skill requirement? *Just for chaos testing* A lot more people could test those then.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.03 12:13:00 -
[13]
The easier task, yes, but IMO not the better one.
The choice between a module reducing the damage you suffer to 30% and another one which, let's say, enhance your tacking is a no brainer - and this is totally independant to the actual damage/s.
If all weapons would deal 10% of the current damage hardeners will still be a "have them or die" equipment, simply because they are the most effective modules around. No other offence/defence modules come even close to their effeciency.
A cruiser with (single) shield hrdeners can easily combat a spawn of 5 other npc cruiser of the same ship class without even bothering to outrange them - something which you said isn't intentioned.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.03 12:19:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Ana Khouri on 03/09/2003 12:21:42
Quote:
I believe someone suggested earlier that frigates should be limited to 2 damage mods, cruisers to 4 and battleships to 6.
Don't think that would change anything - most BS do not mount more than 6 damage mods anyway.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.04 00:50:00 -
[15]
It lowered the resitance only by 20 or 30% , though.
Andf resitance drainers would make shield hardeners even more of a must have module.
Lets say a -30% EM resitance drainer - without SH 130% damage (100 * 1.3), with SH 39% (130 * 0.3). The damage blocked by the Sh is still 70%, but since the other ships deals more EM damage due to the resistance drainer it blocks more damage.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.04 02:31:00 -
[16]
Since I saw several posts saying that the reduced SH will make ships, which can mount more, stronger and ships, which can mount less, weaker.
Actually it's exactly the other way around. Please keep an open mind and follow me for 1-2 mins.
Multiple shield hardeners take effect after each other. A 70% SH will reduce 100 dmage by 70% to 30 damage. The next SH will reduce this 30 damage again by 70% - 70% of the 30 damage and not of the 100 damage - to 9.
Now let's take a ship 1 with a single SH against a ship 2 with a double array. Let's assume both ships deal each other 100 shield damage before the hardeners.
The single hardener of ship 1 and the first hardener of ship 2 will both decrease the damage to 30. Basically both ships will still deal themselves the same damage compared to each other. So, we can savely ignore the first SH reduction on both ships since they have no effect on the damage ratio both ships have to each other.
This means we have no SH on ship one and 1 SH on ship 2 (since ship 1's sole SH and the first SH of ship 2 canceled each other out).
Now, if the ships use 70% hardeners ship 2 will suffer only 30% of the damage ship 1 suffers.
But when both ships use 40% hardeners ship 2 will suffer 60% of the damage it deals to ship 1.
So, a ship with multiple hardeners is in fact MORE vulnerable with 40% hardners as with 70% hardeners against a ship with single hardeners.
I'm pretty sure someone now want's to type "But a scorp which use single hardeners now could use double to compensate..".
Yes, it could. But medium slots don't grow on trees if you get my meaning. In order to find room for a second SH array it needs to ditch some other mdules. Which it very likly simply cannot do and still keep enough of them to actually use them effeciently (ecm, inhibitors, wab jammer, webber, etc). The only scorps which still could use 2 hardners without completly redesigning their outfit & chaing their tactics are those which already had 2 hareners prepatch.
Nevermind that scorps are the only ships with double hardners, they are a valid option on all ships with 4 or mor slots when you know your enemy.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.04 04:28:00 -
[17]
The main reason I was/am strongly for the reduction of hardener effeciency is bacaue they have become a standart item.
Med slots became more or less synonymous with the number of shield hardeners you can fit (in addition to a sb and perhaps a MWD), quite similar like the low slots are more or less synonymous with damage mods.
(I know that there are other outfits, but damage mods and shield hardeners are standart for most)
Since - IMO - diversity is the lifeblood of a MMORPG such a dominncy of certain items is seen by me as bad thing.
SH are with 40% no uber item anymore, but ships have problems with too high weapon damage now. As jim Raynor pointed out there is a pretty simple solution for that problem. The main reason for that are not the weapons themselves, though, but the damage mods.
So, reducing the damage mod effeciency would actually solve most weapon damage problems. There are several suggestion how damage mods could be changed so far:
- change the stacking mechanics; same items get less and less of a bonus if you use more of them
- limit the number of the same items which a ship can carry
- devide the current mods into two new kind of mods - pure damage+ and pure rof+ ones
My personel (and highly subjective, since I'm one of the persons who suggested that option) vote would be the 3rd option, since 1) and especially 2) will limit how you can outfit a ship, therefore reducing diversity, which I see as a bad thing, as stated already. In addition to that that change would require the least amount of code changes (I think).
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.04 11:27:00 -
[18]
9.) bad idea, at least for tracking and sensor disruptors. You need more of those at once so they are effecient.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.04 14:14:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Ana Khouri on 04/09/2003 14:14:44
Quote:
All guns have slots to fit ammo/crystals in, right?
So, would an option be to create a similar slot, where you can stick a meta-gun module in, and that the bonus applies -to that gun only- ?
This would free up low slots to be used as armour modules, etc, and couteract the gun stacking
Very good idea. Got my vote.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.15 18:02:00 -
[20]
It will be reduced to 25% like the commone version.
SIngle damage type hardeners will be 50%, not 40%.
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